Changes

Al: Oh, sorry, I would have listened to it so I could give you some flack. Okay, I see. Normally I get my podcasts through Apple Podcast. Are they available there, or do I download on this website?

Al: Oh, sorry, I would have listened to it so I could give you some flack. Okay, I see. Normally I get my podcasts through Apple Podcast. Are they available there, or do I download on this website?

Randy:Yes. No, it's available on ITunes, yeah.

Randy:Yes. No, it's available on iTunes, yeah.

Al: Under Antic?  

Al: Under Antic?  

Randy: That is interesting.

Randy: That is interesting.

Al: And in fact, one of the things I did, was I led a team in research in advanced technology that developed some of the underpinnings of MPAV, the idea of digitizing movies, videos and putting them on a computer, which was reviled at the time. This was in the late '80s. Scully and Gassay [SP] thought it was a stupid idea, which was absolutely great because in a big corporation, had they realized how important that technology would be - Quick Time and videos - they would have given it marketing, legal, administrative support and probably would have ruined it. We were left to our devices. So there I was at Apple without Steve Jobs, which was one of my criteria. I did not wish to work for Mr. Jobs.

Al: And in fact, one of the things I did, was I led a team in research in advanced technology that developed some of the underpinnings of MPEG, the idea of digitizing movies, videos and putting them on a computer, which was reviled at the time. This was in the late '80s. Sculley and Gassée thought it was a stupid idea, which was absolutely great because in a big corporation, had they realized how important that technology would be - Quick Time and videos - they would have given it marketing, legal, administrative support and probably would have ruined it. We were left to our devices. So there I was at Apple without Steve Jobs, which was one of my criteria. I did not wish to work for Mr. Jobs.

Randy: Oh, really? Well, I can't say that I blame you. I've heard stories.

Randy: Oh, really? Well, I can't say that I blame you. I've heard stories.

Al: Let me correct one thing, because it's caused me a little bit of grief, I legally technically was not a founder of Atari. Atari was founded by Nolan Bushnell, Ted Dabney and Larry Bryant as Syzygy company and I was the first employee. I was employee number three and the engineer hired. I had a big amount of stock, which I thought was worthless at the time. But, it many senses I was a founder, but not in a legal sense. So, I don't get too much email on hat subject.

Al: Let me correct one thing, because it's caused me a little bit of grief, I legally technically was not a founder of Atari. Atari was founded by Nolan Bushnell, Ted Dabney and Larry Bryant as Syzygy company and I was the first employee. I was employee number three and the engineer hired. I had a big amount of stock, which I thought was worthless at the time. But, it many senses I was a founder, but not in a legal sense. So, I don't get too much email on hat subject.

Randy: Okay. Well that was one of the things I wanted to clarify. I wasn't sure wheter you were a partner in the company when it was founded. I knew you were employee number three.

Randy: Okay. Well that was one of the things I wanted to clarify. I wasn't sure whether you were a partner in the company when it was founded. I knew you were employee number three.

Al: Not technically a founder.

Al: Not technically a founder.

Al: Sure. Okay. When Steve was working at Atari as a tech primarily, he had this buddy, Woz, that was working at HP. And at one point, he left and went off with Dan Kottke to India to meet his guru and when he came back he asked for his job back, and I said "sure." And so things progressed and his buddy Woz would come by quite often in the evenings and play the driving games that we had on the production floor at the time. So he'd be playing them all night. So you know we were all friends and Woz was certainly a brilliant man, but Jobs had this crazy idea for a home computer called the Apple II. He and Woz had done the Apple I and so they made a business out of it. I sadly, wasn't too impressed with the business, because back in those days, back in 1974-75, not a lot of people had ever touched a computer. Having graduated from Berkeley, I did have to work with a computer. Big control data CDC 6400. So I knew a tad of Fortran. Even though it's not something we ever had access to at work, although we did have at the time a mini-computer - a Nova General - nevertheless I didn't think there was any kind of a market for a computer in the home.  

Al: Sure. Okay. When Steve was working at Atari as a tech primarily, he had this buddy, Woz, that was working at HP. And at one point, he left and went off with Dan Kottke to India to meet his guru and when he came back he asked for his job back, and I said "sure." And so things progressed and his buddy Woz would come by quite often in the evenings and play the driving games that we had on the production floor at the time. So he'd be playing them all night. So you know we were all friends and Woz was certainly a brilliant man, but Jobs had this crazy idea for a home computer called the Apple II. He and Woz had done the Apple I and so they made a business out of it. I sadly, wasn't too impressed with the business, because back in those days, back in 1974-75, not a lot of people had ever touched a computer. Having graduated from Berkeley, I did have to work with a computer. Big control data CDC 6400. So I knew a tad of Fortran. Even though it's not something we ever had access to at work, although we did have at the time a mini-computer - a Nova General - nevertheless I didn't think there was any kind of a market for a computer in the home.  

Because my vision of computers were things you program with Fortran and maybe basic stuff like that. But he had the enthusiasm and they had a prototype - the Apple I. So he offered us the product. My understanding was Woz offered it to Hewlett-Packard and they turned it down. They offered it to us. I got an introduction meeting with Joe Keenan who was our sane business man president and Joe turned it down. Basically because we had a lot on our plate dealing with the home video game business. And by the way, I think that the 6402 micro-processor was probably a joint decision. It was something we had chosen for our VCS and we saw the power and price performance of that product and I'm not going to get into a fight about who got there first, but it was about the same time. You had to choose between Intel and Motorola. And in fact the 6402 was quite the processor. But back to that story, we passed on it. Steve was kind of stuck, he needed money to fund this thing. We introduced him to Don Valentine at Sequoia, a venture capital firm in the Valley which is still around and doing quite well. And Don Valentine was a little bit taken aback by it at first. These are very young people, no real business experience and I remember Don coming back and saying "They're in a garage." I said "Isn't that the Silicon Valley story, you start in a garage?" "Yeah, but there's a car in the garage. It's his mother's garage."  

Because my vision of computers were things you program with Fortran and maybe basic stuff like that. But he had the enthusiasm and they had a prototype - the Apple I. So he offered us the product. My understanding was Woz offered it to Hewlett-Packard and they turned it down. They offered it to us. I got an introduction meeting with Joe Keenan who was our sane business man president and Joe turned it down. Basically because we had a lot on our plate dealing with the home video game business. And by the way, I think that the 6502 micro-processor was probably a joint decision. It was something we had chosen for our VCS and we saw the power and price performance of that product and I'm not going to get into a fight about who got there first, but it was about the same time. You had to choose between Intel and Motorola. And in fact the 6502 was quite the processor. But back to that story, we passed on it. Steve was kind of stuck, he needed money to fund this thing. We introduced him to Don Valentine at Sequoia, a venture capital firm in the Valley which is still around and doing quite well. And Don Valentine was a little bit taken aback by it at first. These are very young people, no real business experience and I remember Don coming back and saying "They're in a garage." I said "Isn't that the Silicon Valley story, you start in a garage?" "Yeah, but there's a car in the garage. It's his mother's garage."  

Randy: Yeah.

Randy: Yeah.

Randy: So it was a real project?

Randy: So it was a real project?

Al: Well, it was a project - I don't think a resistor or wire was ever wrapped. I think we just tried to get it started administratively. We knew that the engineers would whine about it and we would get back at Steve because he was hiring all the [inaudible 00:19:03] anyhow.

Al: Well, it was a project - I don't think a resistor or wire was ever wrapped. I think we just tried to get it started administratively. We knew that the engineers would whine about it and we would get back at Steve because he was hiring all the bastards anyhow.

Randy: So, you guys, obviously you didn't know you were helping someone who would wind up being a competitor one day.  

Randy: So, you guys, obviously you didn't know you were helping someone who would wind up being a competitor one day.  

Al: Not a competitor in the game business, which we saw ourself in at the time. Subsequently, later we then decided to participate in the personal computer industry. There were many players in it by that time.

Al: Not a competitor in the game business, which we saw ourselves in at the time. Subsequently, later we then decided to participate in the personal computer industry. There were many players in it by that time.

Randy: So, what did make Atari decide to do their own computer?

Randy: So, what did make Atari decide to do their own computer?

Randy: Yeah, what was that about?

Randy: Yeah, what was that about?

Al: Apple had created this market for home computers, soon to be called personal computers, and for whatever reason, IBM decided to get into that business. But they also decided to do it in Boca Raton, outside of the corporate environment because someone there was smart enough to realize that that kind of corporate culture is not going to work well for a thousand dollar personal computer. There's no way that organization could do it. So they did it with Intel's chips and Microsoft's software. But at that time, long story short, our corporation got a hold of their corporation and I think Ray Coussar’s [SP] goal, the idea was to persuade IBM that maybe what you need is our computer. You know, if you're going to do that, we have the whole deal right here and it meets the FCC rules. So there was this very big all day meeting with this entourage of IBM executives and attorneys. Fascinating. Maybe I'm wandering a little bit too much here, but do you recall Gary Kildall and CPM?

Al: Apple had created this market for home computers, soon to be called personal computers, and for whatever reason, IBM decided to get into that business. But they also decided to do it in Boca Raton, outside of the corporate environment because someone there was smart enough to realize that that kind of corporate culture is not going to work well for a thousand dollar personal computer. There's no way that organization could do it. So they did it with Intel's chips and Microsoft's software. But at that time, long story short, our corporation got a hold of their corporation and I think Ray Kassar’s goal, the idea was to persuade IBM that maybe what you need is our computer. You know, if you're going to do that, we have the whole deal right here and it meets the FCC rules. So there was this very big all day meeting with this entourage of IBM executives and attorneys. Fascinating. Maybe I'm wandering a little bit too much here, but do you recall Gary Kildall and CPM?

Randy: Yes.

Randy: Yes.

Al: I know there were some real issues with the disk drives. They were a liability. I know there were some problems with that.  

Al: I know there were some real issues with the disk drives. They were a liability. I know there were some problems with that.  

Randy: With the ATN [SP] drive?

Randy: With the 810 drive?

Randy: Again, that was a problem, but again, to me part of the problem there was we had to keep the high speed signals under control. But it was a weird step child. Atari at the time - around 1981 - was flush with Atari VCS. We were making up in the billion dollar range on cartridges. Way more than personal computers were making at the time. So it didn't have the full focus of attention. Management under the Warner regime was kind of disconnected. The engineering was no longer engineering driven, it was more marketing driven. But the marketing people didn't really understand this emerging industry or really even the old traditional Silicon Valley industry. So there were some issues in my humble opinion. I eventually left because I didn't see these guys having much success long term because of that. Sadly I was right in '83.  

Randy: Again, that was a problem, but again, to me part of the problem there was we had to keep the high speed signals under control. But it was a weird step child. Atari at the time - around 1981 - was flush with Atari VCS. We were making up in the billion dollar range on cartridges. Way more than personal computers were making at the time. So it didn't have the full focus of attention. Management under the Warner regime was kind of disconnected. The engineering was no longer engineering driven, it was more marketing driven. But the marketing people didn't really understand this emerging industry or really even the old traditional Silicon Valley industry. So there were some issues in my humble opinion. I eventually left because I didn't see these guys having much success long term because of that. Sadly I was right in '83.  

Al: Not too much. Not so much.

Al: Not too much. Not so much.

Randy: I think you went to Bill Kindrig's Atari party, right, last year?

Randy: I think you went to Bill Kendrick's Atari party, right, last year?

Al: I went to the Homebrew Computer Club reunion even though I never went to the Homebrew Computer Club at the time. I was too busy working at Atari. But they were all taking parts from me. Oh boy. I go to a thing out here called the California Extreme with all these arcade games. It's out there in the summer. I attend that. And I do volunteer work where I mentor young people to nurture a potential budding nerd. The world needs more nerds.  

Al: I went to the Homebrew Computer Club reunion even though I never went to the Homebrew Computer Club at the time. I was too busy working at Atari. But they were all taking parts from me. Oh boy. I go to a thing out here called the California Extreme with all these arcade games. It's out there in the summer. I attend that. And I do volunteer work where I mentor young people to nurture a potential budding nerd. The world needs more nerds.  

Randy: I hate to put you on the spot here, but we have a lot of Atari users who listen to this podcast. What message would you leave for them today?

Randy: I hate to put you on the spot here, but we have a lot of Atari users who listen to this podcast. What message would you leave for them today?

Al: As I said back in the early days with Pong, my message was "Avoid missing ball for a high score." [inaudible 00:47:26] set on my tombstone.

Al: As I said back in the early days with Pong, my message was "Avoid missing ball for a high score." That's what's set on my tombstone.

Randy: There you go. That's a good quote.  

Randy: There you go. That's a good quote.