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Dave Ahl and Betsy Ahl (view source)

Revision as of 19:45, 19 August 2021

1,366 bytes added ,  19:45, 19 August 2021
fixing inaudible sections
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   David:            That was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
   David:            That was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back.
   −
   Betsy:            But then John [inaudible 01:11:05 - Genshi? Genji?] kept doing it a little bit.
+
   Betsy:            But then John Jainschigg kept doing it a little bit.
    
   David:            I know. In a lot of cases, particularly with the games magazine,
 
   David:            I know. In a lot of cases, particularly with the games magazine,
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                     [laughs] It doesn't pay off to take that approach. I didn't have
 
                     [laughs] It doesn't pay off to take that approach. I didn't have
 
                     the same emotional connection, with that as I did with Creative
 
                     the same emotional connection, with that as I did with Creative
−
                     Computing and the other magazines there. Fine, you do what you want
+
                     Computing and the other magazines there. But it, fine, you do what
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                    with the magazine, it's OK.
+
                    you want with the magazine, it's OK.
    
   Kevin:            You didn't care too much?
 
   Kevin:            You didn't care too much?
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   David:            Nah.
 
   David:            Nah.
   −
   Kevin:            What do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible
+
   Kevin:            So, what do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible
−
                     01:19:45] ?
+
                     01:18:45] ?
   −
   Betsy:            Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls and he runs his
+
   Betsy:            Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls, and he runs his
 
                     website and does Bible studies.
 
                     website and does Bible studies.
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                     three weeks this summer, I'll have 135 over three weeks this
 
                     three weeks this summer, I'll have 135 over three weeks this
 
                     summer.
 
                     summer.
−
   
                     It started in our backyard and one of the reasons that we wanted
 
                     It started in our backyard and one of the reasons that we wanted
 
                     to...It started in the church and we started the organization
 
                     to...It started in the church and we started the organization
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                     to people. If you say "Oh I'm going to Guatemala." "Oh I'd love to
 
                     to people. If you say "Oh I'm going to Guatemala." "Oh I'd love to
 
                     go with you! Who's going?" "It's my church." "Oh."
 
                     go with you! Who's going?" "It's my church." "Oh."
−
   
                     But, if it's this local non-profit it's more appealing and we've
 
                     But, if it's this local non-profit it's more appealing and we've
 
                     really succeeded in doing that because we have people not only from
 
                     really succeeded in doing that because we have people not only from
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   David:            You got the Virginia.
 
   David:            You got the Virginia.
   −
   Betsy:            Virginia. It's like oh my goodness. How is this happening?
+
   Betsy:            Virginia. It's like oh my goodness, how is this happening?
    
   Kevin:            And everyone goes out to Guatemala and does the [inaudible
 
   Kevin:            And everyone goes out to Guatemala and does the [inaudible
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                     [laughter]
 
                     [laughter]
   −
   Betsy:            It's small potatoes compared to...
+
   Betsy:            It's small potatoes compared to, say...
 
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
 +
                   
 +
  David:            Yeah, but in six, seven years...
    
   Betsy:            As my boss, the Chairman of the Board, and I'm the only employee,
 
   Betsy:            As my boss, the Chairman of the Board, and I'm the only employee,
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   David:            We were trying to maybe see if we can touch base with the Gates
 
   David:            We were trying to maybe see if we can touch base with the Gates
−
                     Foundation when we were up there. [laughs]
+
                     Foundation when we were up there. Of course... [laughs]
    
   Betsy:            We got a brochure into his hands.
 
   Betsy:            We got a brochure into his hands.
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   David:            Oh, yeah. I had a picture of him that I had taken at the first
 
   David:            Oh, yeah. I had a picture of him that I had taken at the first
 
                     Altair convention in 1976, before he had actually made the deal
 
                     Altair convention in 1976, before he had actually made the deal
−
                     with Altair to develop BASIC. He had said, "I can do it," but they
+
                     with Altair to develop BASIC, well he had said, "I can do it," but
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                     hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as a 20-
+
                     they hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as
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                    year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention.
+
                    a 20-year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention.
    
   Kevin:            You showed it to him?
 
   Kevin:            You showed it to him?
   −
   David:            Yeah. I gave him a copy. The problem I had is that...some people
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   David:            Yeah. I gave him a copy of it. The problem I had is that...some
−
                    keep everything. I pretty much give everything away.
+
      people keep everything. I pretty much give everything away.
    
   Betsy:            Oh, you are lying. You keep everything.
 
   Betsy:            Oh, you are lying. You keep everything.
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   Betsy:            I'm sure there is.
 
   Betsy:            I'm sure there is.
   −
   Kevin:            It is a lot [inaudible 01:26:33] .
+
   Kevin:            Its got a lot smaller.
    
   David:            She improves with age. Every year.
 
   David:            She improves with age. Every year.
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   Betsy:            There was this sucking sound.
 
   Betsy:            There was this sucking sound.
   −
   David:            And then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody has to go see
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   David:            And that wasn't even... then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody
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                    Bill.
+
                    has to go see Bill.
    
   Betsy:            I was talking to Bob Rynett this morning, the guy who organized it,
 
   Betsy:            I was talking to Bob Rynett this morning, the guy who organized it,
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   Betsy:            Yeah, exactly. It was a cameo.
 
   Betsy:            Yeah, exactly. It was a cameo.
   −
   Kevin:            [inaudible 01:27:52] cameo there?
+
   Kevin:            Was this your cameo there?
    
   Betsy:            Oh, yes. There I am. I was thinner then. Oh! There's Ted in his
 
   Betsy:            Oh, yes. There I am. I was thinner then. Oh! There's Ted in his
−
                     hat! And Peter [inaudible 01:28:02] . Who's that guy?
+
                     hat! And Peter Fee! Who's that guy?
   −
   David:            Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats. The
+
   David:            Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats, a
 
                     Xanadu hat.
 
                     Xanadu hat.
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                     crazy...
 
                     crazy...
   −
                     This was our building.
+
                     Oh, and this was our building.
    
   David:            That was the greenhouse garage building that we started. [laughs]
 
   David:            That was the greenhouse garage building that we started. [laughs]
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                     with the service the readers were getting. And so we decided to
 
                     with the service the readers were getting. And so we decided to
 
                     bring it in it house, and we brought a program from a company in
 
                     bring it in it house, and we brought a program from a company in
−
                     Boston that had written a program to run a PDP11.
+
                     Boston that had written a program to run a PDP-11.
 +
                   
 
                     And we did we brought the whole thing in-house. We had our own data
 
                     And we did we brought the whole thing in-house. We had our own data
 
                     entry people. Did all the caging, taking the money out in-house.
 
                     entry people. Did all the caging, taking the money out in-house.
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   David:            You know we were real pioneers there and we did spent some money.
 
   David:            You know we were real pioneers there and we did spent some money.
−
                     Because PDP1170 was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12
+
                     Because PDP-11/70 was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12
 
                     inch, maybe 15 inch, but a big, big platter drive, and data entry
 
                     inch, maybe 15 inch, but a big, big platter drive, and data entry
 
                     terminals, DECWriters, VT05. And when Ziff came in, I mean they
 
                     terminals, DECWriters, VT05. And when Ziff came in, I mean they
 
                     were blown away that we were doing our own fulfillment, and doing a
 
                     were blown away that we were doing our own fulfillment, and doing a
 
                     very efficiently.
 
                     very efficiently.
 +
                   
 
                     And the other thing we were doing also was the reader service
 
                     And the other thing we were doing also was the reader service
 
                     cards. We were doing all our own processing of that. The same
 
                     cards. We were doing all our own processing of that. The same
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   Betsy:            Mini data was the one you were using...
 
   Betsy:            Mini data was the one you were using...
 +
    
[Day 2]
 
[Day 2]
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   Kevin:            OK let's go, let me grab a pen.
 
   Kevin:            OK let's go, let me grab a pen.
   −
   David:            One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I. the
+
   David:            One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I, that the
 
                     embezzlement that we were talking about was actually 79 not 78 it
 
                     embezzlement that we were talking about was actually 79 not 78 it
 
                     doesn't make a lot of difference but was a year later. It was a
 
                     doesn't make a lot of difference but was a year later. It was a
 
                     year after I had left my day job, and I was really depending upon
 
                     year after I had left my day job, and I was really depending upon
 
                     Creative Computing for my income and everything else. So to lose
 
                     Creative Computing for my income and everything else. So to lose
−
                     that was a big blow at that time.
+
                     that was a big blow at that time. So that was...
   −
   Kevin:            So that could have been the end of things right there?
+
   Kevin:            So that could have put an end to things right there?
    
   David:            Yes absolutely it could have.
 
   David:            Yes absolutely it could have.
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   Kevin:            Please, please be here. You supplement Dave's memory.
 
   Kevin:            Please, please be here. You supplement Dave's memory.
   −
   David:            Yes exactly she's very good at that.
+
   David:            Yes exactly, she's very good at that.
 +
 
 +
  David:            And you were there and have some very good stories...
 
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
−
 
+
                   
 +
                   
 +
[clipped out of audio?]
 
   Betsy:            I want to know, how are you going to know how to spell things? He
 
   Betsy:            I want to know, how are you going to know how to spell things? He
 
                     used the name John Dilks. If you go to write it out, how do you
 
                     used the name John Dilks. If you go to write it out, how do you
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                     it down. I can concentrate on the conversation, rather than taking
 
                     it down. I can concentrate on the conversation, rather than taking
 
                     notes.
 
                     notes.
 +
[restarts]
 +
    
   David:            OK. One thing I thought would be kind of worthwhile...putting the
 
   David:            OK. One thing I thought would be kind of worthwhile...putting the
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                     computers -- the pre-personal computer era, which I would say would
 
                     computers -- the pre-personal computer era, which I would say would
 
                     be 1972 or so up through '75, when the first computers came out.
 
                     be 1972 or so up through '75, when the first computers came out.
−
                     What was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems.
+
                      
−
 
+
                    And what was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems.
−
                     Then, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time-
+
                     But then, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time-
 
                     sharing systems for terminals on a computer. Specifically, Bob
 
                     sharing systems for terminals on a computer. Specifically, Bob
 
                     Albrecht opened up People's Computer Company down in San Carlos,
 
                     Albrecht opened up People's Computer Company down in San Carlos,
 
                     San Mateo, one of the "Sans." It was an open to the public place.
 
                     San Mateo, one of the "Sans." It was an open to the public place.
 
                     What were people going to do with computers? Well, he wrote this
 
                     What were people going to do with computers? Well, he wrote this
−
                     book of what to do after you hit return, of games.
+
                     book of What To Do After You Hit Return, of games.
    
                     Then I wrote my book, not for his center, but for people in the
 
                     Then I wrote my book, not for his center, but for people in the
 
                     east that had access to the same type of things on DEC computers.
 
                     east that had access to the same type of things on DEC computers.
−
                     Those two books actually came out in '72. That was well
+
                     Those two books actually came out in '72, so that was well
 
                     before....There was an impetus for people to use computers. Even
 
                     before....There was an impetus for people to use computers. Even
 
                     though it was mini-computers and they didn't really have their own,
 
                     though it was mini-computers and they didn't really have their own,
 
                     they did have access.
 
                     they did have access.
   −
                     That, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit
+
                     So that, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit
 
                     computers first came out, which is '75, we really had the kit
 
                     computers first came out, which is '75, we really had the kit
 
                     computer era from '75 to around '78. That's when it primary was,
 
                     computer era from '75 to around '78. That's when it primary was,
 
                     the do-it-yourself, build-it-yourself.
 
                     the do-it-yourself, build-it-yourself.
   −
                     Who did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who were
+
                     Well who did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who  
−
                     OK with things like soldering guns. That was largely HAM radio
+
                     were OK with things like soldering guns and that was largely HAM radio
 
                     people. You look at "73" magazine and "Radio Electronics," those
 
                     people. You look at "73" magazine and "Radio Electronics," those
 
                     were the ones that dragged the hardware people into the field, and
 
                     were the ones that dragged the hardware people into the field, and
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                     that you could plug into the S-100 bus. There was more, but on the
 
                     that you could plug into the S-100 bus. There was more, but on the
 
                     other hand, you had to build it. That was really a stumbling block
 
                     other hand, you had to build it. That was really a stumbling block
−
                     for a lot of people. Then processor technology with the SAL. OK,
+
                     for a lot of people. Then Processor Technology with the SOL. OK,
 
                     here's an S-100 bus machine, but it's all built. That was a big
 
                     here's an S-100 bus machine, but it's all built. That was a big
 
                     leap.
 
                     leap.
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   David:            Yeah. Again, magazine publishing. I remember, early on, I was on a
 
   David:            Yeah. Again, magazine publishing. I remember, early on, I was on a
−
                     TV show. McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine
+
                     TV show, McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine
 
                     was being re-launched and Time-Warner was spending a ton of money
 
                     was being re-launched and Time-Warner was spending a ton of money
 
                     on this re-launch. They had the publisher of Life Magazine.
 
                     on this re-launch. They had the publisher of Life Magazine.
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                     they had me. Sort of the opposite extreme.
 
                     they had me. Sort of the opposite extreme.
    +
 +
[clipped out of audio?]
 
   Kevin:            You're going to be covered in cat hair by the time you're here.
 
   Kevin:            You're going to be covered in cat hair by the time you're here.
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   Kevin:            Yes. Yes. Sorry to interrupt.
 
   Kevin:            Yes. Yes. Sorry to interrupt.
 +
[restarts]
 +
 +
 
    
   David:            Anyway, they were interviewing both of us. They were going to spend
 
   David:            Anyway, they were interviewing both of us. They were going to spend
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   Betsy:            Used.
 
   Betsy:            Used.
   −
   David:            Used. Yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter
+
   David:            Used. Yes, yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter
−
                     where...what did you [inaudible 00:14:22] ?
+
                     where... what did you you call it?
    
   Betsy:            It was the same thing with the fulfillment. You are sending it to a
 
   Betsy:            It was the same thing with the fulfillment. You are sending it to a
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                     send it out and wait for your galleys to come back. Then you
 
                     send it out and wait for your galleys to come back. Then you
 
                     proofread them. Then you'd send it back. Then they make the
 
                     proofread them. Then you'd send it back. Then they make the
−
                     corrections maybe and you get it back again. So we said, well...and
+
                     corrections, maybe, and you get it back again. So we said, well...and
−
                     then we got this used, copy graphic was it?
+
                     then we got this used, CompuGraphic was it?
    
   David:            Mm-hmm. Yep.
 
   David:            Mm-hmm. Yep.
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   Betsy:            Typesetter. Found a young woman who knew typesetting and hired her.
 
   Betsy:            Typesetter. Found a young woman who knew typesetting and hired her.
 
                     We bought our own stat camera. We always used to have to send all
 
                     We bought our own stat camera. We always used to have to send all
−
                     the stats and [inaudible 00:15:34] out to be made.
+
                     the stats and V-Luxes out to be made.
 
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
    
   David:            That was huge then before...
 
   David:            That was huge then before...
   −
   Betsy:            Had our own darkroom.
+
   Betsy:            ...had our own darkroom.
   −
   David:            ...everything was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own
+
   David:            ...there was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own
 
                     darkroom and our own stat camera with the thing that goes over a
 
                     darkroom and our own stat camera with the thing that goes over a
 
                     screen basically to make it into dots.
 
                     screen basically to make it into dots.
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   Kevin:            Right.
 
   Kevin:            Right.
   −
   David:            To do that. To make those negatives or [inaudible 00:15:56] , which
+
   David:            a...nd to do that. To make those negatives or V-Luxes, which
 
                     are the positive. That was something again. You sent it out and you
 
                     are the positive. That was something again. You sent it out and you
 
                     get it back.
 
                     get it back.
 +
                   
 
                     I said, "Oh, you know what, we got a little more type here than
 
                     I said, "Oh, you know what, we got a little more type here than
−
                     expected. We want to crop this. Well, we send it out again, and oh
+
                     expected. We want to crop this." Well, we send it out again, and oh
−
                     my gosh." Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a
+
                     my gosh. Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a
 
                     sense, just for the hardware and capital improvements that you
 
                     sense, just for the hardware and capital improvements that you
 
                     needed to do that.
 
                     needed to do that.
Line 1,821: Line 1,836:  
                     but then also tried to push into things like the consumer
 
                     but then also tried to push into things like the consumer
 
                     electronics show.
 
                     electronics show.
 +
                   
 
                     We were the only magazine at the consumer electronics. That's a
 
                     We were the only magazine at the consumer electronics. That's a
 
                     huge, huge show. Twice a year, one in Chicago and one in Las Vegas.
 
                     huge, huge show. Twice a year, one in Chicago and one in Las Vegas.
Line 1,836: Line 1,852:  
                     the shows. You have to experiment and do those things. We started
 
                     the shows. You have to experiment and do those things. We started
 
                     reporting on new developments at the consumer electronics show and
 
                     reporting on new developments at the consumer electronics show and
−
                     there was some overlap with Computer Inc but it was mostly video
+
                     there was some overlap with computers but it was mostly video
 
                     games. No, it didn't have a real good payoff. [laughs]
 
                     games. No, it didn't have a real good payoff. [laughs]
 +
                   
 
                     Then there was the Boston show we went to where Betsy's feistiness
 
                     Then there was the Boston show we went to where Betsy's feistiness
 
                     really came out. You go to those shows. I'm not talking about one
 
                     really came out. You go to those shows. I'm not talking about one
Line 1,873: Line 1,890:  
                     was really in his face about come on. We're a tiny little nit. Sure
 
                     was really in his face about come on. We're a tiny little nit. Sure
 
                     we can do it. We can carry our own stuff.
 
                     we can do it. We can carry our own stuff.
 +
                   
 
                     Shelley Adelman, whose name you probably heard today, in a sense,
 
                     Shelley Adelman, whose name you probably heard today, in a sense,
 
                     got his start by running these smaller shows around the country and
 
                     got his start by running these smaller shows around the country and
Line 1,907: Line 1,925:  
                     small press to exhibit was one platform up in the subway under
 
                     small press to exhibit was one platform up in the subway under
 
                     Lincoln Center.
 
                     Lincoln Center.
 +
                   
 
                     Lincoln Center, of course, huge, but down one level is not shops.
 
                     Lincoln Center, of course, huge, but down one level is not shops.
 
                     There may be a few shops but it was a big, open platform. That's
 
                     There may be a few shops but it was a big, open platform. That's
Line 1,932: Line 1,951:  
                     convention or world future society. Yeah, it was world future
 
                     convention or world future society. Yeah, it was world future
 
                     society convention.
 
                     society convention.
 +
                   
 
                     They had some notable people there. I was sitting down with Alvin
 
                     They had some notable people there. I was sitting down with Alvin
 
                     Toffler in the lobby of the Colosseum and along comes over to us
 
                     Toffler in the lobby of the Colosseum and along comes over to us
−
                    Isaac [inaudible 00:27:03] (ED: from context, they are talking about
+
                     Isaac Asimov. What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in
−
                     Isaac Asimov). What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in
   
                     the Colosseum and I said, "Isaac, can you write me an article?"
 
                     the Colosseum and I said, "Isaac, can you write me an article?"
−
                     "I got a good story from the robot series that hasn't been widely
+
                     "I got a good story from the I, Robot series that hasn't been widely
 
                     used or published and you can use that." So I got an early  
 
                     used or published and you can use that." So I got an early  
−
                     contribution from Isaac [inaudible 00:27:27] and Alvin
+
                     contribution from Asimov and Alvin Toffler wrote something for us.
−
                    Toffler wrote something for us.
      
                     Anyway, got to know some interesting people at that point. Then who
 
                     Anyway, got to know some interesting people at that point. Then who
Line 1,954: Line 1,972:  
   David:            I don't know if you remember, we were reminded when Harry Garland
 
   David:            I don't know if you remember, we were reminded when Harry Garland
 
                     was up at the thing in Seattle. Harry Garland was one of the first
 
                     was up at the thing in Seattle. Harry Garland was one of the first
−
                     ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a 100 bus
+
                     ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a S-100 bus
 
                     board, for the Altair, and this was really early, and he called it
 
                     board, for the Altair, and this was really early, and he called it
 
                     the TV Dazzler. It made little squares light up but he could make
 
                     the TV Dazzler. It made little squares light up but he could make
 
                     lots of them light up in different colors or just a few. It was a
 
                     lots of them light up in different colors or just a few. It was a
−
                     silly program but people said we can do graphics on this.
+
                     silly program but people said, whoa, we can do graphics on this.
 +
                   
 
                     He eventually developed it into quite an interesting graphics tool,
 
                     He eventually developed it into quite an interesting graphics tool,
 
                     I guess. People did buy the TV Dazzler for itself but the purpose
 
                     I guess. People did buy the TV Dazzler for itself but the purpose
−
                     was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics. In
+
                     was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics.
−
                     any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program did
+
                      
−
                     for the Apple. Not much.
+
                    So in any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program
 +
                     did for the Apple. Not much.
    
   Betsy:            This was not early on.
 
   Betsy:            This was not early on.
Line 1,975: Line 1,995:  
   Betsy:            1980, yeah.
 
   Betsy:            1980, yeah.
   −
   Kevin:            Did you publish it?
+
   Kevin:            So did you publish it?
    
   Betsy:            No. I rejected it. [laughs]
 
   Betsy:            No. I rejected it. [laughs]
   −
   David:            I'm like we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton?
+
   David:            I'm like, my god, we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton?
   −
   Betsy:            We both liked Michael Creighton as an article.
+
   Betsy:            We both liked Michael Creighton as an author.
    
   David:            Oh my gosh. But we did. We really did. We had standards.
 
   David:            Oh my gosh. But we did. We really did. We had standards.
    
   Betsy:            Later on, though, he wrote something. It was better. It wasn't
 
   Betsy:            Later on, though, he wrote something. It was better. It wasn't
−
                     great. He did write something better and we did accept it.
+
                     great, but he did write something better and we did accept it.
    
   Kevin:            Orson Scott Card wrote for Compute, I think. I don't know if he was
 
   Kevin:            Orson Scott Card wrote for Compute, I think. I don't know if he was
−
                     Orson Scott Card at that point, but [inaudible 00:30:00] .
+
                     Orson Scott Card yet at that point, but some flub who was writing,
 +
                    yeah. But who else?
    
   David:            We've crossed paths with some people.
 
   David:            We've crossed paths with some people.
   −
   Betsy:            [inaudible 00:30:09] was actually very nice
+
   Betsy:            Michael Creighton was actually very nice.
   −
   David:            Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was very nice. Unfortunately, he died.
+
   David:            Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was a very nice guy. Unfortunately, he
−
                     On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was
+
                     died On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was
 
                     probably even before Betsy got in...kind of in the small press
 
                     probably even before Betsy got in...kind of in the small press
 
                     underground publishing movement as much as in the legitimate big
 
                     underground publishing movement as much as in the legitimate big
Line 2,003: Line 2,024:  
   Betsy:            When I came, we had just published the first sleek, coated paper
 
   Betsy:            When I came, we had just published the first sleek, coated paper
 
                     magazine and coated stock. In October 1978, I believe, that was
 
                     magazine and coated stock. In October 1978, I believe, that was
−
                     published. That was the first of the coated stock. That was kind of
+
                     published. That was the first one on coated stock. That was kind of
 
                     the bridge to legitimacy.
 
                     the bridge to legitimacy.
   −
   David:            For the first two years, [inaudible 00:31:09] news print and I had
+
   David:            For the first two years, it was published on news print and I had
 
                     a little tie in with some of the small press people. I was learning
 
                     a little tie in with some of the small press people. I was learning
−
                     about publishing from small press review, I got to know some of the
+
                     about publishing from small press review, and I got to know some of  
−
                     people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were
+
                     the people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were
 
                     magazines and comics out of San Francisco.
 
                     magazines and comics out of San Francisco.
−
                     So I got to know a little bit [inaudible 00:31:46] and Gilbert
+
                   
 +
                     So I got to know a little bit... R. Crumb and Gilbert
 
                     Shelton and Sherry Flannigan, and some of those early, Bobby
 
                     Shelton and Sherry Flannigan, and some of those early, Bobby
 
                     London. So anyway, one ad we ran real early on was an adaptation of
 
                     London. So anyway, one ad we ran real early on was an adaptation of
−
                     Renee and Robert Crompton. Go ahead and change my thing to creative
+
                     an add that Robert Crumb did. He said "Go ahead and change my thing
−
                    computing. Go for it. Sherry Flannigan she did a comic strip called
+
                    to creative computing. Go for it." Sherry Flannigan she did a comic  
−
                    Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie was a little
+
                    strip called Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie
−
                    girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog.
+
                    was a little girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog.
 +
                    So I published that.
    
   Kevin:            Was there some sort of falling out with that person?
 
   Kevin:            Was there some sort of falling out with that person?
Line 2,024: Line 2,047:  
                     major, major problem, she was involved with Gary Hallgrin and I
 
                     major, major problem, she was involved with Gary Hallgrin and I
 
                     forget who the publisher was, McNeil, Bobby London. They were the
 
                     forget who the publisher was, McNeil, Bobby London. They were the
−
                     Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, that caused
+
                     Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, and really, oh
−
                    the death of a lot of publishing in the underground comics
+
                    my god, that caused the death of a lot of publishing in the underground
−
                     movement.
+
                     comics movement.
    
   Kevin:            I don't understand.
 
   Kevin:            I don't understand.
Line 2,038: Line 2,061:     
   David:            Disney just said, "We can't put up with this." It was an
 
   David:            Disney just said, "We can't put up with this." It was an
−
                     interesting case, because was it a copyright violation, not really
+
                     interesting case, because was it a copyright violation? Not really
 
                     because they were character look-a-likes, but they weren't calling
 
                     because they were character look-a-likes, but they weren't calling
 
                     them Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck but they looked the same or very
 
                     them Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck but they looked the same or very
−
                     similar. But, it was a landmark case in underground comics, it
+
                     similar. But, it was a landmark case in the underground comics movement
−
                     caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire and stuff
+
                     and it really caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire
−
                    that they were publishing.
+
                    and stuff that they were publishing.
    
   Kevin:            I asked about Sherry because a number of years ago when I had first
 
   Kevin:            I asked about Sherry because a number of years ago when I had first
−
                     put the best of [inaudible 00:34:29] on my website, then after a
+
                     put the Best of Creative Computing books on my website, they were up
−
                     while I got an email saying, "Look, you have to take this
+
                     for a while, then I got an email saying, "You have to take this content,
−
                     [inaudible 00:34:37] ." I would copyright all, it was just like
+
                     these pages down... copyright violation", it was just like
−
                     waving arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it
+
                     waving their arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it
 
                     was...
 
                     was...
   −
   David:            Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there interpretation
+
   David:            Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there interpretations
−
                     that really, really strict...everything that goes on the Internet
+
                     that go from really, really strict...everything that goes on the  
−
                     is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either. Are you
+
                     Internet is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either.
−
                    making money from copyrighted material? If you are then that's a
+
                    Are you making money from copyrighted material? If you are then
−
                    pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright owners
+
                    that's a pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright
−
                     ability to make money with it? That's a violation.
+
                     owner's ability to make money with it? That's a violation.
−
                     I'm kind of in this right now with Uruguay and TinTin, those books
+
                   
 +
                     I'm kind of in this right now with Hergé and TinTin, those books
 
                     have inspired a lot of people to make parodies and fake TinTin
 
                     have inspired a lot of people to make parodies and fake TinTin
−
                     covers. TinTin at the beach, places TinTin wouldn't normally go.
+
                     covers, you know, TinTin at the beach, you know, places TinTin
−
                    Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books, or is it actually
+
                    wouldn't normally go. Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books,
−
                    increasingly them?
+
                    or is it actually increasing them?
   −
                     Casterman, who owns and [inaudible 00:36:07] owns the TinTin
+
                     Casterman, who owns, and Mulenard, own the TinTin copyrights.
−
                     copyrights. They are really going after some of these people, but
+
                     They are really going after some of these people, but I'm not
−
                    I'm not sure that they have a really good case. So some people take
+
                    sure that they have a really good case. So some people take
−
                     everything off and don't want nothing on the website. And others
+
                     everything off and want nothing on the website. And others
 
                     are saying, "Hey, this is legitimate." I have collected a lot of
 
                     are saying, "Hey, this is legitimate." I have collected a lot of
 
                     those covers, and put them up on a website.
 
                     those covers, and put them up on a website.
Line 2,081: Line 2,105:  
   David:            I think that they have to demonstrate that it's hurting them in
 
   David:            I think that they have to demonstrate that it's hurting them in
 
                     some way. One last thing, from the question you asked yesterday,
 
                     some way. One last thing, from the question you asked yesterday,
−
                     back to the money issue, when I sold the magazine, right at that
+
                     back to the money issue, where does the money go, well when I
−
                    time I took 15 percent of what I had received, and donated it to
+
                    sold the magazine, right at that time I took 15 percent of what
−
                    charities. I have in a sense signed on, although not as an official
+
                    I had received, and donated it to charities. I have in a sense
−
                    signee to the Gates-Buffet initiative to give away half of my
+
                    signed on, although not as an official signee, to the Gates-Buffet
−
                    wealth, while I am alive.
+
                    initiative to give away half of my wealth, while I am alive.
 +
                   
 
                     At one point in time you can compute that, I have already given
 
                     At one point in time you can compute that, I have already given
−
                     away more than I have received for Creative Computing to Charity.
+
                     away more than I have received for Creative Computing to charity.
 
                     Of course, it had grown a little bit and we made reasonably decent
 
                     Of course, it had grown a little bit and we made reasonably decent
−
                     investments and that is why it continued to grow. But, I'm really
+
                     investments and it continues to grow. But, I'm really committed
−
                     committed to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all.
+
                     to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all. That's just
−
                    That's just the way it is, that is the way I believe. Put my money
+
                    the way it is, the way I believe. Put my money where my heart is.
−
                    where my heart is. Anyway,
+
                    Anyway,
   −
   Kevin:            Other question is, you said something yesterday, I should follow up
+
   Kevin:            I have a question for you Betsy, you said something yesterday,
−
                    that one. You said something about stealing Basic.
+
                  I should follow up that one. You said something about stealing BASIC.
    
   Betsy:            Well there was this big thing. Just the night before last, at this
 
   Betsy:            Well there was this big thing. Just the night before last, at this
Line 2,109: Line 2,134:  
                     incidents and things from the past.
 
                     incidents and things from the past.
   −
   Kevin:            Did you get to sell the story to this group of...?
+
   Kevin:            Did you get to tell a story to this group of...?
   −
   David:            Not really, I was just followed up on something [inaudible
+
   David:            Not really, I just followed up on something Nolan Bushnell said.
−
                    00:39:24] .
      
   Betsy:            Some of those stories were really boring.
 
   Betsy:            Some of those stories were really boring.
 
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
   −
   David:            Oh yeah, long and boring. It's an interesting thing though, about
+
   David:            Oh yeah, long and boring.
−
                    basic itself, but it was developed at an educational institution
+
 
−
                    originally by Kemeny and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either
+
  Betsy:            Way too long.
−
                    deliberately or because they had gotten a lot of grant money from
+
 
−
                    General Electric in the early time sharing systems, they basically
+
  David:            It's an interesting thing though, about basic itself, because, well
−
                    let anybody use their Basic.
+
                    it was developed at an educational institution originally by Kemeny
−
                     It was developed at Dartmouth but later Honeywell put a system in
+
                    and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either deliberately or because they
−
                    at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could use Basic,
+
                    had gotten a lot of grant money from General Electric in the early time
−
                    they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic a
+
                    sharing systems, they basically let anybody use their Basic.
−
                     universal language that was available, at least that version of
+
                      
−
                     Basic. If you write a different version of Basic, where does that
+
                    So it was developed at Dartmouth but if GE, or later Ge/Honeywell,
 +
                    put a system in at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could
 +
                    use Basic, they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic
 +
                     a universal language that was available, at least that version of
 +
                     Basic.  
 +
                   
 +
                    Well then if you write a different version of Basic, where does that
 
                     fall? These are some sort of violation and you need some
 
                     fall? These are some sort of violation and you need some
 
                     permission. And basically Kemeny and Kurtz said, "No, you don't."
 
                     permission. And basically Kemeny and Kurtz said, "No, you don't."
 +
                   
 +
                    [background noise due to cat]
 +
                   
 
                     And they allowed Basic to be used and developed by others.
 
                     And they allowed Basic to be used and developed by others.
   Line 2,135: Line 2,168:  
                     roughly the same time, had developed also an interactive language
 
                     roughly the same time, had developed also an interactive language
 
                     called Focal. And Focal in many regards was more efficient than
 
                     called Focal. And Focal in many regards was more efficient than
−
                     Basic, because they were running it on many computer and there was
+
                     Basic, because they were running it on mini-computers and there was
 
                     less memory to work with. On the other hand, and this was true
 
                     less memory to work with. On the other hand, and this was true
−
                     Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, nobody can use Focal. We
+
                     Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, no no, nobody else can use
−
                    are not going to let, especially those people [inaudible 00:41:59]
+
                    Focal. We are not going to let, especially those people at Data General,
−
                     ." But any place else, nobody could use Focal.
+
                     but any place else, nobody could use Focal."
    
                     I think it wound up with a situation like Sony and Betamax. Sony
 
                     I think it wound up with a situation like Sony and Betamax. Sony
 
                     saying, "Betamax is ours and it is a better format that VHS," which
 
                     saying, "Betamax is ours and it is a better format that VHS," which
−
                     it was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS and Toshiba. Hey do you
+
                     it was, it definitely was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS. Ok Toshiba,
−
                    want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to nothing."
+
                    hey do you want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to
 +
                    nothing."
    
   Kevin:            You think Focal could have been Basic.
 
   Kevin:            You think Focal could have been Basic.
Line 2,151: Line 2,185:  
                     have been very serious competition between the two languages, but
 
                     have been very serious competition between the two languages, but
 
                     by Digital limiting it only to their own computers and specifically
 
                     by Digital limiting it only to their own computers and specifically
−
                     to their mini computers, not even the big mainframes, it really
+
                     to their minicomputers, not even the big mainframes, it really
−
                     limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me to go out to the
+
                     limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me, at DEC, to go
−
                    developers and people in educational institutions they wanted
+
                    out to the developers, and people in educational institutions they
−
                     Basic.
+
                     wanted Basic.
−
                     There were few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that
+
                   
 +
                     There were a few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that
 
                     were OK with Focal. But stuff was getting published by Minnesota
 
                     were OK with Focal. But stuff was getting published by Minnesota
−
                     Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, [inaudible
+
                     Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, and Huntington
−
                     00:43:32] computer project. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to
+
                     Computer Project. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to
−
                     go on. I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an
+
                     go out, I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an
−
                     individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for 4KPDP8. Well
+
                     individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for 4K PDP-8. Well
−
                     Basic took 3.5K, I gave you 500 words, 512 bit not even the 16 bit,
+
                     Basic took 3.5K, that gave you 500 words, 500 12 bit, not even
−
                    at least get 2 bits per...but 500 words the right programs. Wasn't
+
                    16 bit, at least get 2 bytes per... but 500 words to write programs.
−
                    much.
+
                    Wasn't much.
   −
                     So that forced Lunar Lander and [inaudible 00:44:15] and some of
+
                     So that forced Lunar Lander and Hamurabi and some of those programs
−
                     those programs actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal
+
                     actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal into Basic. And
−
                    into Basic. And then we had a machine that had 8K. We had a
+
                    then we had a machine that had 8K, we had a different version of Basic
−
                    different version of Basic because Hewlett Packard had a machine
+
                    and then because Hewlett Packard had a machine that read cards, mark
−
                    that read cards, mark sense cards. We had to have a different
+
                    sense cards, we had to have a different version of basic for that.
−
                    version of basic for that. Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had
+
                    Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had six versions of Basic, five actually
−
                    six versions of Basic, five actually on the PDP8 family. It was
+
                    on the PDP-8 family. It was absurd, it was crazy, but well, we had to do it.
−
                    absurd, it was crazy, but we had to do it.
     −
   Kevin:            I was going to ask you, the process of like...you started
+
   Kevin:            I was going to ask you, kind of the process of like... you started
−
                     saying...you interrupted yourself. You said, "People would submit
+
                     saying... you interrupted yourself really, you said, "People would submit
 
                     articles and then..." I don't know what you were going to say next.
 
                     articles and then..." I don't know what you were going to say next.
−
                     But [inaudible 00:45:08] that I wanted to ask you like just the
+
                     But it reminded me that I wanted to ask you like, kind of, just the
 
                     process of how the magazine got made. You got an article was,
 
                     process of how the magazine got made. You got an article was,
−
                     somebody just typed up or something and...
+
                     I assume it was typed up or something and...
    
   Betsy:            You mean the mechanics of the production?
 
   Betsy:            You mean the mechanics of the production?
Line 2,186: Line 2,220:     
   Betsy:            We can receive most of the articles for the magazine came over the
 
   Betsy:            We can receive most of the articles for the magazine came over the
−
                     transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial system
+
                     transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial assistant
−
                     would log them in and pass them around to editorial staff. John
+
                     would log them in and pass them around to the editorial staff. John
−
                     Anderson and Russell [inaudible 00:45:42] .
+
                     Anderson and Russ Lockwood and...
    
   David:            Peter Fee.
 
   David:            Peter Fee.
Line 2,194: Line 2,228:  
   Betsy:            Peter Fee.
 
   Betsy:            Peter Fee.
   −
   Kevin:            What does it mean over the transom?
+
   Kevin:            What does that mean, over the transom?
    
   Betsy:            Means they weren't solicited. Somebody in the middle of the night
 
   Betsy:            Means they weren't solicited. Somebody in the middle of the night
−
                     jumped to know [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little
+
                     dumped them overboard [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little
 
                     piece of paper on there and the guys would write their opinions.
 
                     piece of paper on there and the guys would write their opinions.
   Line 2,223: Line 2,257:  
                     Once we were well established, the vast majority of them went back.
 
                     Once we were well established, the vast majority of them went back.
 
                     We never returned manuscripts. And they would come with piles of
 
                     We never returned manuscripts. And they would come with piles of
−
                     code. A lot of them were programs and, we would decide and the
+
                     code. A lot of them were programs and, then we would decide, and
−
                     editorial assistants job to notify the person. Then we bought all
+
                     then it was the editorial assistants job to notify the person.
−
                    rights, didn't we?
+
                    Then we bought all rights, didn't we?
    
   David:            Mm-hmm.
 
   David:            Mm-hmm.
    
   Betsy:            North American Serial rights, that's what we bought for everything.
 
   Betsy:            North American Serial rights, that's what we bought for everything.
−
                     Then they would go into a cube. Sometimes we would say something,
+
                     Then they would go into a queue. Sometimes we would say something,
 
                     "Oh, this is going to go really well with this educational
 
                     "Oh, this is going to go really well with this educational
−
                     institute that we're doing in June," Like that one is for June or
+
                     institute that we're doing in June," so slate that one for June, or
 
                     just put it in the queue and we will see when it comes or rises to
 
                     just put it in the queue and we will see when it comes or rises to
 
                     the top or whatever.
 
                     the top or whatever.
 +
                   
 
                     The more technical editors like, John Anderson, he was our best guy
 
                     The more technical editors like, John Anderson, he was our best guy
−
                     ever. They would go through the code and make sure the code worked,
+
                     ever... they would go through the code and make sure the code worked,
 
                     and I would edit them for content and correct them.
 
                     and I would edit them for content and correct them.
   −
   David:            For English and Grammar.
+
   David:            For English, for grammar.
    
   Betsy:            Yeah, with a pen and pencil. Then they would go to our typesetter.
 
   Betsy:            Yeah, with a pen and pencil. Then they would go to our typesetter.
Line 2,250: Line 2,285:     
   Betsy:            And then, if they had screenshots or anything the art department
 
   Betsy:            And then, if they had screenshots or anything the art department
−
                     would make them into photo stats or [inaudible 00:49:02] . And then
+
                     would make them into photo stats or v-luxes. And then when it was
−
                    when it was time for them to go to press they would put them on
+
                    time for them to go to press they would put them on boards, pieces
−
                    boards, pieces of cardboard, white paper...
+
                    of cardboard, white paper...
   −
   Kevin:            So you paste up?
+
   Kevin:            So like paste up?
    
   Betsy:            Yeah, they do the paste up and put it on there.
 
   Betsy:            Yeah, they do the paste up and put it on there.
   −
   David:            The boards were using non reproducing blue on its photograph. They
+
   David:            The boards were using non-reproducing blue on its photograph. They
 
                     had different outlines, blue defined columns, both two and three
 
                     had different outlines, blue defined columns, both two and three
−
                     column pages and upper limits and page numbers and all that kind of
+
                     column pages and upper limits and page numbers can go and all that kind of
 
                     stuff.
 
                     stuff.
   −
   Kevin:            We were still doing it on [inaudible 00:49:43] newspaper in 1990.
+
   Kevin:            We were still doing it in college newspaper in 1990.
 
                     [laughs]
 
                     [laughs]
   Line 2,270: Line 2,305:  
                     to read it to make sure there is no lines left out, particularly of
 
                     to read it to make sure there is no lines left out, particularly of
 
                     the programs. Make sure that those all still make sense. There were
 
                     the programs. Make sure that those all still make sense. There were
−
                     many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off a things and
+
                     many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off the thing and
−
                     realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it short." And that whole line
+
                     realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it shorter." and that little line
 
                     disappears and then you send it off to be printed and all the
 
                     disappears and then you send it off to be printed and all the
−
                     subscribers get a little upset because Startrek doesn't run.
+
                     subscribers get a little upset because Star Trek doesn't run.
 
                     [laughs]
 
                     [laughs]
   −
   Kevin:            So that sort of thing happened frequently or often?
+
   Kevin:            So that sort of thing happened infrequently, or often?
    
   David:            With typeset material, not much at all. But with program listings,
 
   David:            With typeset material, not much at all. But with program listings,
Line 2,283: Line 2,318:  
                     end dot matrix printer. And we always encouraged people, if you're
 
                     end dot matrix printer. And we always encouraged people, if you're
 
                     going to submit a program, submit it in some machine-readable form.
 
                     going to submit a program, submit it in some machine-readable form.
−
                     So we don't want to type them all in to make sure they work. Even
+
                     We don't want to type them all in to make sure they work, even
 
                     though our readers are going to have to, but we don't want to have
 
                     though our readers are going to have to, but we don't want to have
 
                     to do that. So send us. But even so, we might then print it off on
 
                     to do that. So send us. But even so, we might then print it off on
Line 2,300: Line 2,335:     
   Kevin:            Personally, I know it said so much about magazine that when it
 
   Kevin:            Personally, I know it said so much about magazine that when it
−
                     continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten area going,
+
                     continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten arrow going,
 
                     "Continued over here." [laughs]
 
                     "Continued over here." [laughs]
   Line 2,307: Line 2,342:  
   David:            Oh, absolutely.
 
   David:            Oh, absolutely.
   −
   Betsy:            That was a early.
+
   Betsy:            That was early.
    
   Kevin:            It wasn't professional, and that was awesome. It was just like,
 
   Kevin:            It wasn't professional, and that was awesome. It was just like,
 
                     "OK."
 
                     "OK."
   −
   Betsy:            Then what we would do, we would request when we...we would solicit
+
   Betsy:            Then what we would do, we would request when we... we would solicit
 
                     articles. Like if there was a new Apple peripheral that we wanted
 
                     articles. Like if there was a new Apple peripheral that we wanted
 
                     to review, we'd get the product. Then a lot of times, our own guys
 
                     to review, we'd get the product. Then a lot of times, our own guys
Line 2,318: Line 2,353:  
                     have time for, or that was better suited to one of our freelancers,
 
                     have time for, or that was better suited to one of our freelancers,
 
                     we would send it out and ask for a review of it.
 
                     we would send it out and ask for a review of it.
 +
                   
 
                     A lot of reviews came in over the transom too, but we tried to be
 
                     A lot of reviews came in over the transom too, but we tried to be
 
                     careful of those, that they were not either trying to justify their
 
                     careful of those, that they were not either trying to justify their
Line 2,323: Line 2,359:  
                     producing it. [laughs]
 
                     producing it. [laughs]
   −
   Kevin:            Or written by the... [crosstalk]
+
   Kevin:            Or written by the [ED: manufacturer]... [crosstalk]
 +
 
 +
  David:            That didn't really happen.
    
   Betsy:            That really wasn't an issue at the time, it was a more innocent
 
   Betsy:            That really wasn't an issue at the time, it was a more innocent
Line 2,335: Line 2,373:  
                     computer field at all I was in market research. There are a number
 
                     computer field at all I was in market research. There are a number
 
                     of biases, too, that really overwhelmingly affect all kinds of
 
                     of biases, too, that really overwhelmingly affect all kinds of
−
                     market research polls or surveys. One is that people think they're
+
                     market research, polls, or surveys. One is that people think they're
 
                     better than they are. For example, if we were doing a poll or a
 
                     better than they are. For example, if we were doing a poll or a
 
                     research study, we'd put a question on basically designed to show
 
                     research study, we'd put a question on basically designed to show
Line 2,344: Line 2,382:  
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
   −
   David:            No, no. This was way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble
+
   David:            No, no, way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble
−
                     products or general foods or that kind of thing. Anyways, the
+
                     products or General Foods or that kind of thing. Anyways, the
 
                     question we put on was "please rank your driving ability," and we
 
                     question we put on was "please rank your driving ability," and we
 
                     had from well below average, accident waiting to happen up to Mario
 
                     had from well below average, accident waiting to happen up to Mario
Line 2,351: Line 2,389:  
                     of the population ranked themselves better than the average. Where
 
                     of the population ranked themselves better than the average. Where
 
                     is your average then? Its way high.
 
                     is your average then? Its way high.
 +
                   
 
                     The other thing, equally pervasive in a sense, is that people
 
                     The other thing, equally pervasive in a sense, is that people
 
                     wanted to justify a decision, a purchase decision. In fact, back
 
                     wanted to justify a decision, a purchase decision. In fact, back
Line 2,364: Line 2,403:  
                     that did own that particular car did buy another one? They're
 
                     that did own that particular car did buy another one? They're
 
                     always way lower than they those that say they would buy another
 
                     always way lower than they those that say they would buy another
−
                     one. It gets more pronounced with higher prices.
+
                     one.
 +
                   
 +
                    And it gets more pronounced with higher prices. If you've made a decision
 +
                    to buy a high-priced car, you're going to think, "Man, I'll tell you what.
 +
                    This Land Rover was the best car I have ever bought." And 78 percent of
 +
                    people might say, "I'm going to buy another one." and you know what,
 +
                    about 15 percent of the people actually do.
   −
                    If you've made a decision to buy a high-priced car, you're going to
+
   Kevin:            So this gets back to the magazine because people want to justify in a
−
                    think, "I'll tell you what. This Land Rover was the best car I have
+
                     review...
−
                    ever bought." 78 percent of people might say, "I'm going to buy
  −
                    another one." About 15 percent of the people actually do.
  −
 
  −
   Kevin:            So [inaudible 00:56:49] magazine because people want to justify a
  −
                     review.
      
   David:            Yeah. That's exactly right. And as Betsy said, it could go the
 
   David:            Yeah. That's exactly right. And as Betsy said, it could go the
 
                     other way, too. "I think I'm getting screwed here with this product
 
                     other way, too. "I think I'm getting screwed here with this product
−
                     and I'm going to knock it." When you get reviews, in essence, over
+
                     and I'm going to knock it." So when you get reviews, in essence, over
 
                     the transom, they're either justifying, "This was really wonderful.
 
                     the transom, they're either justifying, "This was really wonderful.
 
                     I made a great decision buying this particular product," or "I hate
 
                     I made a great decision buying this particular product," or "I hate
Line 2,384: Line 2,424:  
   Kevin:            Do you ever push-back from advertisers?
 
   Kevin:            Do you ever push-back from advertisers?
   −
   David:            All the time.
+
   Betsy:            All the time.
    
   Kevin:            Can you tell me?
 
   Kevin:            Can you tell me?
Line 2,393: Line 2,433:  
                     objective, and not every product is perfect. Almost every product
 
                     objective, and not every product is perfect. Almost every product
 
                     is going to have some negative feature.
 
                     is going to have some negative feature.
 +
                   
 
                     We would put those in and the advertisers would then go to their ad
 
                     We would put those in and the advertisers would then go to their ad
 
                     rep and complain. Then the ad rep would come to us and say, "Why
 
                     rep and complain. Then the ad rep would come to us and say, "Why
Line 2,401: Line 2,442:  
                     then it will reflect on your ad."
 
                     then it will reflect on your ad."
   −
   Kevin:            Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads [inaudible 00:58:39] ?
+
   Kevin:            Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads, you know...?
    
   Betsy:            I don't, offhand. Do you?
 
   Betsy:            I don't, offhand. Do you?
Line 2,409: Line 2,450:  
                     reviews. They did get more advertising than we did from some
 
                     reviews. They did get more advertising than we did from some
 
                     manufacturers that liked that. I hate to name names, but Compute
 
                     manufacturers that liked that. I hate to name names, but Compute
−
                     Magazine. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute
+
                     magazine. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute
−
                     Magazine. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
+
                     magazine. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
−
                     Personal Computing, similar, very positive. "Gee whiz" reviews on
+
                     Personal Computing, similar, very positive "Wow, gee whiz" reviews on
 
                     almost all the things that they saw. It just isn't that way.
 
                     almost all the things that they saw. It just isn't that way.
   −
   Kevin:            You have talked about [inaudible 00:59:49] . We've talked briefly
+
   Kevin:            You have talked a lot about Creative and we've talked briefly
 
                     at least about the other magazines. Sync, the one about Timex
 
                     at least about the other magazines. Sync, the one about Timex
 
                     Sinclair. I understand the allure of publishing a magazine geared
 
                     Sinclair. I understand the allure of publishing a magazine geared
Line 2,432: Line 2,473:  
                     Computer World in England.
 
                     Computer World in England.
   −
   David:            And we had an agreement that they would reprint materials from
+
   David:            And we had an agreement that they could reprint materials from
 
                     Creative Computing, which they did for a while but then they
 
                     Creative Computing, which they did for a while but then they
 
                     developed their own in-house capabilities and there was enough
 
                     developed their own in-house capabilities and there was enough
Line 2,438: Line 2,479:  
                     England that we could take subscriptions.
 
                     England that we could take subscriptions.
   −
   Betsy:            A housewife who kept her back issues in her spare bathroom.
+
   Betsy:            A housewife who kept the back issues in her spare bathroom.
 
                     [laughs]
 
                     [laughs]
    
   David:            Yeah, we still know her. Hazel Greaves, Hazy. Anyway, so we were
 
   David:            Yeah, we still know her. Hazel Greaves, Hazy. Anyway, so we were
 
                     getting enough subscriptions from England. We were sending over, I
 
                     getting enough subscriptions from England. We were sending over, I
−
                     don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them Mbags, M-
+
                     don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them Mbox, or M-
−
                     bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we mail them from
+
                     bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we remail them from
 
                     England. So I had more of our connection with British market than
 
                     England. So I had more of our connection with British market than
−
                     probably any of the other magazines, we definitely did.
+
                     probably any of the other magazines, well definitely did.
−
                     And so I get to know Clarkson Clair and what's going on over there.
+
                   
 +
                     And so I get to know Clive Sinclair and what's going on over there.
 
                     And then when they bring over the computer to this country and
 
                     And then when they bring over the computer to this country and
−
                     Timex, my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that
+
                     Timex, I mean my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that
−
                     time you know, there was no point starting a [inaudible 01:02:25]
+
                     time you know, there was no point starting a Commodore
 
                     magazine or an entire magazine. They were, Or Apple, they were
 
                     magazine or an entire magazine. They were, Or Apple, they were
 
                     already existed. So maybe this is going to be the next big one. We
 
                     already existed. So maybe this is going to be the next big one. We
−
                     will be right there when they start and we were.
+
                     will be right there when they start. When they were.
   −
                     Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple sink or something
+
                     Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple Sync or something
 
                     but it was in the package with the computer. So that was one way of
 
                     but it was in the package with the computer. So that was one way of
 
                     getting our subscriber base and we couldn't possibly afford to
 
                     getting our subscriber base and we couldn't possibly afford to
−
                     advertise and do direct mailings for magazine like that. But they
+
                     advertise and do direct mailings for a magazine like that. But they
−
                     were in essence helping us go on. So that's why it is pretty
+
                     were, in a sense, helping us get going. So that's why. It was pretty
−
                     successful actually. Often, we were making money on the magazine
+
                     successful actually. We were making money on that magazine
 
                     mainly because we didn't have to promote it.
 
                     mainly because we didn't have to promote it.
    
                     If we had to get subscriptions, we could not have possibly made it
 
                     If we had to get subscriptions, we could not have possibly made it
 
                     work. There wasn't enough advertising really. I don't know what the
 
                     work. There wasn't enough advertising really. I don't know what the
−
                     issue here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it.
+
                     ratio here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it.
 
                     The magazine would have been tiny if we maintained the same
 
                     The magazine would have been tiny if we maintained the same
 
                     advertising to edit ratio we would have liked. But we didn't lose
 
                     advertising to edit ratio we would have liked. But we didn't lose
−
                     money out of it but we didn't make anything out of it either. I
+
                     money on it but we didn't make anything on it either. I
−
                     think it was a breakeven proposition.
+
                     think it was a break-even proposition.
   −
   Kevin:            OK. Microsystems. [inaudible 01:04:09] .
+
   Kevin:            OK. Microsystems. I'll say I don't think I know anything about it,
 +
                    but it was on the list.
   −
   David:            I said there was a lot of early development in New Jersey and there
+
   David:            Microsystems... I said there was a lot of early development in
−
                    was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him probably, [laughs]
+
                    New Jersey and there was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him
−
                    who was the first president of the Amature Computer Group in New
+
                    probably, [laughs] who was the first president of the Amateur
−
                    Jersey. He was a Professor at [inaudible 01:04:43] College and he
+
                    Computer Group in New Jersey. He was a Professor at Trenton State
−
                    felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then they were
+
                    College, and he felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then
−
                    focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were already
+
                    they were focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were
−
                     made.
+
                     already made.
 +
                   
 
                     So he wanted to get down on really lower level of do it yourself,
 
                     So he wanted to get down on really lower level of do it yourself,
 
                     build it yourself. Microsystems was more like Byte was in the very
 
                     build it yourself. Microsystems was more like Byte was in the very
−
                     beginning, focusing on circuit diagram, this was logic in PC's and
+
                     beginning, publishing circuit diagram with logic in PC's and
 
                     everything.
 
                     everything.
   −
   Betsy:            There first name was S100, Microsystems
+
   Betsy:            The first name was S-100 Microsystems.
   −
   David:            Yeah, S100 perhaps then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79. When
+
   David:            Yeah, for the S-100 bus, then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79.
−
                     some of the others came out they started [inaudible 01:05:45] 6800
+
                     When some of the others came out they started covering the 6800
−
                     and 68,000 chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really
+
                     and 68000 chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really
−
                     techy magazine and it was one that I think probably killed that one
+
                     techy magazine and it was one that I think, Ziff probably killed
−
                    off.
+
                    that one off.
   −
   Betsy:            It was dead before [inaudible 01:06:05] . [laughs]
+
   Betsy:            It was dead before before Ziff. [laughs]
    
   David:            It might have been. I don't know, but it was...
 
   David:            It might have been. I don't know, but it was...
   −
   Betsy:            S100 bus did not survive and to the [inaudible 01:06:12] .
+
   Betsy:            I mean, S-100 bus did not survive into the 80's.
    
   David:            It was dead before as there was these eras and the do it yourself
 
   David:            It was dead before as there was these eras and the do it yourself
−
                     S100 era,that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral
+
                     S100 era, that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral
 
                     of two or three years and it was gone. Well, maybe it wasn't gone
 
                     of two or three years and it was gone. Well, maybe it wasn't gone
 
                     but it wasn't the same. And so Microsystems was tuned into that and
 
                     but it wasn't the same. And so Microsystems was tuned into that and
 
                     they were running hardcore stuff.
 
                     they were running hardcore stuff.
−
                     And the reason that Saul...we reach an agreement with him to
+
                   
 +
                     And the reason that Saul... we reached an agreement with him to
 
                     publish it, is basically he didn't have any real magazine
 
                     publish it, is basically he didn't have any real magazine
 
                     background. We thought we could do something with it. It turned out
 
                     background. We thought we could do something with it. It turned out
−
                     not to be a good fit bit we published it for a while. I don't know
+
                     not to be a good fit, but we published it for a while. I don't know
 
                     if we made money or lost money on that. Probably it didn't make
 
                     if we made money or lost money on that. Probably it didn't make
 
                     anything. [laughs]
 
                     anything. [laughs]
   −
   Kevin:            Small business computers or computing.
+
   Kevin:            Small Business Computers, or Computing.
    
   David:            What?
 
   David:            What?
Line 2,517: Line 2,562:  
   Betsy:            Small business computers? Who do we buy that from? I can't even
 
   Betsy:            Small business computers? Who do we buy that from? I can't even
 
                     remember. You can't even remember that we had it, I can tell by the
 
                     remember. You can't even remember that we had it, I can tell by the
−
                     look on your face
+
                     look on your face.
   −
   David:            I can
+
   David:            I can't.
   −
   Betsy:            That one of my brothers...my brother was a publisher remember?
+
   Betsy:            That one of my brother... my brother was the publisher remember?
    
   David:            Yeah, I don't know who or where we got it.
 
   David:            Yeah, I don't know who or where we got it.
   −
   Kevin:            That just fall into grave or...?
+
   Kevin:            That just fold into Creative or...?
    
   Betsy:            Eventually, but that we post it for a while. I think is something
 
   Betsy:            Eventually, but that we post it for a while. I think is something
 
                     that somebody basically left on our door step.
 
                     that somebody basically left on our door step.
   −
   David:            Yeah
+
   David:            Yeah.
    
   Betsy:            I think it was kind of like a puppy on the... [laughter]
 
   Betsy:            I think it was kind of like a puppy on the... [laughter]
Line 2,536: Line 2,581:  
   David:            I think it came with your brother.
 
   David:            I think it came with your brother.
   −
   Betsy:            No, because my brother wasn't into publishing until after clearing
+
   Betsy:            No, because my brother wasn't doing publishing until after leaving
 
                     college.
 
                     college.
   −
   David:            It sounded like a good idea at the time.
+
   David:            It sounded like a good idea at the time, but...
   −
   Betsy:            I think we saw a future in business computing
+
   Betsy:            I think we saw a future in business computing.
   −
   David:            Yeah, we did and unfortunately that was one word as if they just
+
   David:            Yeah, we did, and unfortunately that was one Ziff Davis...
−
                    want...I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the
+
                    I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the
 
                     focus of Creative Computing away from home and broaden out and
 
                     focus of Creative Computing away from home and broaden out and
 
                     shifted into the small business market. And just did not, it was an
 
                     shifted into the small business market. And just did not, it was an
Line 2,553: Line 2,598:  
                     where it went.
 
                     where it went.
   −
   David:            I don't know, either.
+
   David:            I don't either.
    
   Betsy:            But I know that obviously it wasn't a huge acquisition.
 
   Betsy:            But I know that obviously it wasn't a huge acquisition.
Line 2,563: Line 2,608:     
   David:            Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ROM
 
   David:            Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ROM
−
                     Magazine. Rom was published by who? (ED: not the Atari-related
+
                     Magazine. ROM was published by who? (ED: not the Atari-related
 
                     magazine of the early 1980s.)
 
                     magazine of the early 1980s.)
   Line 2,575: Line 2,620:  
                     with it. Published nine issues and a little different focus than
 
                     with it. Published nine issues and a little different focus than
 
                     Creative but it really overlapped us very nicely. He had more
 
                     Creative but it really overlapped us very nicely. He had more
−
                     graphic stuff. In fact, it was through him that I got to know
+
                     graphic stuff and it was through him that I got to know
 
                     George Baker and some of the people up there. The other guy that
 
                     George Baker and some of the people up there. The other guy that
 
                     did the pixelated blocks photos. You've seen those.
 
                     did the pixelated blocks photos. You've seen those.
Line 2,586: Line 2,631:     
   David:            Block pics. OK, he and George Baker sort of came as a package with
 
   David:            Block pics. OK, he and George Baker sort of came as a package with
−
                     Rom, they knew of each other. We actually, I would say, four or
+
                     ROM, they knew of each other. We actually, for I would say, four or
−
                     five issues, ran Rom as a whole separate section and even set it on
+
                     five issues, ran ROM as a whole separate section and even set it on
−
                     the cover of Creative Computing and Rom. Then it became evident...
+
                     the cover of Creative Computing and ROM. And then it became evident...
    
   Betsy:            I think that was because he had a whole other editorial kicking
 
   Betsy:            I think that was because he had a whole other editorial kicking
Line 2,595: Line 2,640:  
   David:            Yeah.
 
   David:            Yeah.
   −
   Betsy:            We bought.
+
   Betsy:            That we bought.
    
   David:            Could be. And then we would just merge it in completely, but that
 
   David:            Could be. And then we would just merge it in completely, but that
 
                     was a very good fit. It brought us more editorial than it did
 
                     was a very good fit. It brought us more editorial than it did
−
                     subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base, but it was a
+
                     subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base. But it was a
 
                     nice marriage in a sense.
 
                     nice marriage in a sense.
   Line 2,617: Line 2,662:  
   David:            Yeah. There were only two that really were distributed.
 
   David:            Yeah. There were only two that really were distributed.
   −
   Kevin:            So I have...
+
   Kevin:            So now I have...
 
                     [crosstalk]
 
                     [crosstalk]
   Line 2,632: Line 2,677:  
                     magazines focusing on that. Talk about magazines that were running
 
                     magazines focusing on that. Talk about magazines that were running
 
                     non-objective manufacture-provided reviews, all the others were. I,
 
                     non-objective manufacture-provided reviews, all the others were. I,
−
                     maybe, convinced myself and some people at Davis that there was a
+
                     maybe, convinced myself and some people at Ziff Davis that there was
−
                     need for really objective...
+
                     a need for really objective...
    
   Betsy:            Ziff? Did Ziff do that?
 
   Betsy:            Ziff? Did Ziff do that?
Line 2,658: Line 2,703:  
                     Arcade games then really were on the decline. Video arcades where
 
                     Arcade games then really were on the decline. Video arcades where
 
                     you go in and pop a quarter in, because there was so much more
 
                     you go in and pop a quarter in, because there was so much more
−
                     capability in the home computers and the [inaudible 01:12:55] and
+
                     capability in the home computers and the Coleco and the Mattel
−
                     the Mattel and the different home systems. They could do all now,
+
                     and the different home systems. They could do all, well,
 
                     not as much, but you get a pretty darned good game that you could
 
                     not as much, but you get a pretty darned good game that you could
 
                     take home with you and not have to pop a quarter in the slot every
 
                     take home with you and not have to pop a quarter in the slot every
 
                     time you play.
 
                     time you play.
 +
                   
 
                     So arcade games were kind of on the downward spiral, so that
 
                     So arcade games were kind of on the downward spiral, so that
 
                     eliminated a lot of potential advertising. We weren't going to get
 
                     eliminated a lot of potential advertising. We weren't going to get
−
                     any advertising from Nameco and all of the producers of the arcade
+
                     any advertising from Namco and all of the producers of the arcade
 
                     games, which was, "Hey, it is advertising along with..." And the
 
                     games, which was, "Hey, it is advertising along with..." And the
−
                     other home producers of the game, there were four or five magazines
+
                     other home producers of the games, there were four or five magazines
 
                     already that they were pouring money into. They didn't really want
 
                     already that they were pouring money into. They didn't really want
 
                     another one.
 
                     another one.
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                     get.
 
                     get.
   −
   Kevin:            [inaudible 01:14:28] Atari explored and Atari I think we've covered
+
   Kevin:            Ok, the others I have are Atari Explorer and Atarian, I think we've
−
                     pretty well.
+
                     covered pretty well.
    
   David:            Yeah.
 
   David:            Yeah.
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   David:            [laughs] Yes.
 
   David:            [laughs] Yes.
   −
   Kevin:            So the other magazines, Byte and [inaudible 01:14:45] , was it
+
   Kevin:            So the other magazines, Byte and Kilobaud, was it rivalry?
−
                     rivalry? Was it friendly competition?
+
                     Was it friendly competition?
    
   David:            Byte, we were in bed together. Not in bed together, but we
 
   David:            Byte, we were in bed together. Not in bed together, but we
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                     in the same place and you're going in a hardware direction, we're
 
                     in the same place and you're going in a hardware direction, we're
 
                     going on the software.
 
                     going on the software.
 +
                   
 
                     When Wayne Green threw this intrigue with his wife and everything
 
                     When Wayne Green threw this intrigue with his wife and everything
 
                     else, lost Byte Magazine. He was fit to be tied. "I'm going to kill
 
                     else, lost Byte Magazine. He was fit to be tied. "I'm going to kill
Maury
26

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